Shapiro speaks!: What We Talk About When We Talk About the 2022 Toronto Blue Jays

The Jays' front office was curiously public this week. Some thoughts on why, plus Mark Shapiro on expectations, performance, Schneider, Vlad, Bo, extensions, Romano, an All-Star Game bid, and more!

Screengrab via Sportsnet

There is something about this moment of the 2022 Blue Jays season that is clearly making upper management of the club particularly uneasy. And I don’t just mean uneasy in the way that anyone who was paid to run an MLB franchise would be uneasy if their team had come into the year with championship aspirations only to find itself on the cusp of the season’s final month in genuine danger of being chased down by a division rival that lost 110 games last year. It’s all a bit more curious than that.

GM Ross Atkins held what appeared to be a somewhat impromptu media availability on Monday, following a painful and ugly home series sweep at the hands of the Los Angeles Angels.

On Wednesday, president and CEO Mark Shapiro joined Jeff Blair and Kevin Barker on their Sportsnet radio show for a segment that he admitted was taking place at “an awkward juncture.”

“I wouldn’t normally come on with you guys right now, because it’s not time to draw conclusions,” he said. “It’s time to kind of understand where we are.”

What I believe Shapiro means here is that after the trade deadline passes executive types like he and Atkins tend to assume a lower profile. Generally, from the deadline until the annual string of media duties after the team’s season ends, if there is a microphone in front of these guys something is either going really great or very wrong.

In other words, it would be much too generous to suggest that both of these forays into the public sphere were independently conceived good-natured offers to reflect on the state of the team. Something is happening here that the front office has felt the need to get out in front of, and if it were simply about team performance that could be handled internally. This unmistakably appears to be about controlling the narrative, as Atkins made plain in his most widely quoted comments on Monday.

“Even in my role, obviously, as we watch baseball and watch a lot of it, it can become easy to fall into the trap of expecting perfection from human beings. Which just isn't going to happen,” he said. “We have the benefit of seeing under the hood, and get to see — and you (media) do as well — the work that goes in on a daily basis, their preparation, their conversations about accountability. And that gives me a great deal of confidence in where this team is.”

Later he added more on the same subject:

“I'm fortunate to see the conversations they’re having — sharing the details of those would not be fair to them. But how they're talking about pushing things forward and being better. How they can be better, individually and collectively. I think that's the key. If we can continue to focus on our collective success — and our collective setbacks, and not be finger-pointing and focusing too much when we do have a mental lapse. And that's a fair point. I know fans know they're not going to be perfect. But understanding that what goes in on a daily basis, and their preparation, their routines and counting on one another is powerful. And we're fortunate to see some of the detail than some of the fans are.”

Shapiro would echo those words in part of his interview, as you’ll see below.

One can certainly theorize as to why they would have felt it necessary to say these words at this moment. After an excellent, uplifting road trip through New York and Boston and a beautifully nostalgic anniversary celebration for the 1992 World Series champions, the conversation around the team reverted almost instantaneously to poisonous. Twitter was a tire fire, but I suspect the team’s concerns here go deeper than that.

There will always be dogshit pontificators who are disdainful of their audience enough to lazily prey on fans’ worst and most negative instincts. That stuff can be easily ignored. But one person to whom none of those words apply is Buck Martinez, the venerable long-time team broadcaster, and cancer survivor, who is as revered today as he’s ever been. It’s maybe a stretch to say that losing Buck would be like Walter Cronkite coming out against the Vietnam War (look it up, kids), but the man speaks nearly nightly to a number of Jays fans that is several orders of magnitude larger than, say, a plucky Substack blog. And I think the shift in the tenor of some of Buck’s commentary about the too-frequent stretches of absolute listlessness we’ve seen from this team has been noticeable of late. And, to be fair, usually warranted.

It’s not just Buck, either. For example, Joe Siddall and Jamie Campbell did a segment immediately after some less-than-enthusiastic base running from Teoscar Hernández cost the Jays a run that would have pulled them within to within one of the Angels on Sunday, and pulled no punches about it.

Clip via Spotsnet/MLB Film Room

That play, in particular, all but demands a conversation about accountability, even if — as Atkins correctly points out — those of us who aren’t around the team every day can’t possibly know anything about whether there was any or not, whether it was helpful or not, etc. Either Teo’s injured foot was too sore to play and he shouldn’t have been in the game, or he simply didn’t run hard enough there. And for a team that is not so many weeks removed from having made a managerial change — in part to shake the team out of exactly the kind of malaise that seemed to have returned over the weekend, and in part because players seemed to feel there was a lack of leadership at the top — it’s not a great look.

I’d think a cynic would have a rather easy time connecting the dots between this conversation, Teoscar’s performance, and the fact that he was out of the lineup on Monday — ostensibly because of the foot. Or the outstanding game he had on Tuesday night, during which Monday’s day off was referred to on the broadcast as a wake-up call.

The same cynic might wonder if this latest media tour from the front office is, in effect, an effort to protect a manager that many believe the club has long felt was the guy they’d ultimately want in charge once the rebuild was fully in the rearview. And to reinforce their own decision to fire the previous manager, despite the fact that since the honeymoon period with Schneider has waned, little on the surface seems to have changed.

These guys know a thing or two about how difficult a narrative can be to control in this market once it gets out of hand, so I couldn’t blame them for that. And if the Schneider thing becomes untenable — if it affects consumer confidence — and they have to move on to a fourth manager in eight seasons next year, then their necks are really on the line. So I couldn’t blame them for that either. (Not that I think it will come to that.)

Frankly, I’m not sure how much of this actually needed to be said, especially when you consider how ham-fisted some of their messaging has been over the years. Surely no one over there can be surprised that the major headline from Atkins’ scrum made it sound like the GM was scolding fans for expecting perfection.

But hey, they said it! So let’s take a look at what, exactly, was said — on this subject and many others — by Shapiro when he joined Blair and Barker on Wedensday morning.

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Alright! I’ve hope you’ve taken the advice above and subscribed to this plucky Substack blog. Now it’s on to the radio hit, which I’ve transcribed in full below, though I’ve rearranged the order of some of the questions to better group certain topics together. I have, of course, added my own commentary below Shapiro’s answers as well.

Are you confident this team is on the road to reaching the expectations you set after last season?

Well, I mean, we're — I think if you'd told me we'd be 12 games above .500 and three games ahead for a playoff spot I'd probably say, 'I'd like to be a little better than that.' But we're in a good spot. It's an awkward juncture, I wouldn't normally come on with you guys right now because it's not time to draw conclusions, it's time to kind of understand where we are. It's been an up and down season, certainly. One that's one of the more strange ones that I've observed. But at the same time I know, having the privilege to have a front row seat, you couldn't have a group of guys that care more, work harder, or are better teammates — and have talent.

Normally I would say, 'You put all those things together and you've got a heck of an opportunity to play in postseason.' Now, for me, it's finishing strong and, really, ensuring that we're playing our best baseball heading into the playoffs. Because I think, whether it's the Braves last year or many other historical examples, if we're playing our best baseball and we get in the playoffs, anything can happen.

This is, of course, Shapiro’s version of what Atkins seemed intent on underlining when he spoke on Monday. Everything is cool, baby! Please understand that these guys care!

Fair enough.

As for the other stuff, I don’t want to unfairly parse things out of an interview that was relatively off the cuff, because we all sometimes can say things a bit inelegantly. But I definitely raised an eyebrow at the distinction between “Normally I would say” and “Now, for me” in what I’ve made the second paragraph there. And apparently Blair caught the same vibe there, and tried to get Shapiro to elaborate in a follow-up question.

You called it one of the strangest years you've been a part of, what's been the strangest part of it?

I don't know, just that we — that all those conditions are there and yet there's been some challenging periods where we haven't played well. Again, I don't want to write the last chapter of the book, I think that's premature, but probably just that.

So, to follow the thinking here, it’s been a strange season, because this is an incredibly talented, hard-working group of good people who have had some real difficulty consistently rising to the occasion. Normally a team like this would be zeroing in on the postseason at this stage, whereas this group needs to really get its shit together in order to keep from squandering the incredible and rare opportunity that’s in front of it. They can still make good on their promise, of course. But Shapiro seems to be at a loss as much as we are.

Or, at least, that’s the impression he’d like to give off publicly. If there were bigger issues and he knew about them, I don’t imagine he’d be talking about them on the radio at this stage.

How do you assess the job John Schneider has done since taking over?

He's been great. He's got the incredible advantage of having decades within this organization. Relationships built, from Toronto to Dunedin to New Hampshire to Buffalo to Vancouver, with our players, with our staff, with the people around the team. So it's been comfortable for him. It's not a role — you know, Kevin — you can ever really prepare for. You can't simulate how it's going to feel when you get in it. So I think none of us know how a first-time manager is ever really going to react until he's in that seat. But he's done a great job, I think he's lifted so many positive things around our team, and he's been great.

If you really wanted to you could probably try to read some of those comments about what its like when a manager is truly thrown into the deep end of media duties, internal and external pressure, and generally just sitting in much bigger chair than the minors or a bench coach role could ever prepare you for, as being informed by the Charlie Montoyo Experience, which I have to believe was not quite the one that the Blue Jays had hoped to get. Ultimately, though, the take away here is that John Schneider is great, and is doing great.

I certainly couldn’t say that he’s not! I just can’t help but think about what little appetite the front office must have for going into the winter having to search for a new manager and make some major decisions on the coaching staff, you know?

But let’s be fair and not mistake that observation for any kind of penetrating insight. No team wants to ever have to do that. And of course they want this to work. Of course they want the team they believed was good enough to show that it’s actually good enough.

What does Schneider have to do to remove the "interim" tag, and who will make the final call? Ross? You? A combination of people?

Well, a) I think that is a more appropriate answer for Ross to give. And, b) I'm surprised seven years in you're still asking that question [laughs], because we just don't make decisions that way. We've got an incredible group of people here. I think what we pride ourselves in doing is framing a really strong process for making that decision, with the input from the people that would have information from different perspectives and different angles. In the end, of course, Ross is the person that is in charge and accountable for overseeing our baseball operation on a day-to-day basis. So if you need to have a mass culture view and you don't choose to choose to think about a collaborative organization making an organization together, then I would answer that "Ross."

The GM chooses the manager. Got it.

How do you assess the seasons Bo Bichette and Vladimir Guerrero Jr. are having?

I try to wait for all the information to be in before I draw conclusions, but I think how I feel about those young players, Kevin, hasn't really changed as far as how talented they are, how athletic they are. But there is a maturation process.

I think I've said this to you guys before — I know — you talk about the decades of baseball I've watched, and development is not linear. It's not that steady line up. The beauty of young players is you often have the upside of incredible performances, but you also get some downside with that. What you hope is that over time that they're having a very gradual line up, you know, if you connect the dots from those ups and downs. Whereas if you have a 32-year-old guy like George Springer, you may not quite have the upside of a season that shocks you, but you're pretty sure what you're going to get from him. And when he's been on the field, that's exactly what we've gotten from him.

Shapiro is really just stating the obvious here, and doing so as gently as possible. We can all see the athleticism and the talent in Bo, and Shapiro is certainly right that development isn’t usually linear. But the question of why is a massive one for this organization. Is it simply a matter of a few too many bumps in the road adding up to a rather pedestrian season — albeit one that I think has been significantly better than perceived, while obviously not living up to expectations — or is there more to be concerned about here?

Coming down on one side or the other on a thing like that must be incredibly difficult. Throw in the stuff about the “maturation process” and it becomes even more complicated.

Now, in my view, mental side of the game stuff is best left discussed in the abstract, because it can only be unfair to individual players — especially the way fans have the cringe-worthy tendency of believing they can get into players’ heads just based on things like body language, or even just on-field performance. I don’t want to overemphasize it, either. Shapiro didn’t. It’s a small part of what he said in this response. But it does seem as though the organization may have some thoughts on all that — and one can’t help but wonder if Shapiro was getting toward it in his next answer.

Do you think fans and media are too hard on Bo, playing shortstop every single day?

I mean, I think no one's as hard on Bo as Bo is on himself. That's the answer I can give. That's probably one of the things that he's going to have to figure out how to handle over a career — is that he's so driven to be an elite player, he's so driven to be great that he's never satisfied with his effort, he's never satisfied with the outcomes. Just, to me, that athleticism, his knowledge and love of the game, and that drive, are a good bet over time, but I would say that he probably wants to be better. But I'm not sure he'll ever not want to be better than what he is.

I tend to agree that Bo’s foundation is still definitely worth betting on over time — something I wrote about earlier in the week.

How does an organization help players who are maybe trying too hard?

Here is a question that came from Barker, which led to a brief exchange after Shapiro tried to turn it back on to him. With the underperformance this year of not just Bo but Vladimir Guerrero Jr. as well, I think we all know what he’s getting at.

Anyway, this is what followed:

SHAPIRO: A lot of conversations with whoever they trust and respect most, but you could probably answer that better than me, what do you think? 

BARKER: Well, I mean, this time of year I've never been through anything like this. Right, and it's young guys trying to get an organization and a country through something like that. I just wonder, is it Ross going down, would it be you, would it be the manager? I know the coaches, they're doing their part, I just wonder how that conversation would go when — because you want guys to try, right Mark? You don't want them not to try. How's that fine line there?

SHAPIRO: It's kind of what was saying earlier, that I think's been a little bit of a challenge at times for us in watching the team, and for fans too, is knowing that these guys — I can tell you they care, and they're working hard. But there is a learning process, and there still are things that we're going through for the first time. I guess this is contention at home with fans, which we haven't been through.

There's no question that they want to do well, there's no question that people — I've heard the word "urgency." These guys aren't blind, they wake up and they know the situation, they know the schedule, they know the number of games left. They feel urgency. They felt urgency from game one. We don't have to talk about those things.

So, the answer to your question directly is there's no one answer to that. Individual people, just like you're teaching kids in school, you have to connect first. So you figure out the people that best connect, you have to have a lot of conversations, and ultimately just support them. Because they're so talented and so capable of being great, I start watching every game thinking out best baseball starts tonight, and I really feel like we're capable of that, and we're capable of running off a stretch of baseball deep into October.

The Jays have played 128 games so far this season, at the time I’m writing this, so I can safely that I’ve thought this exact same thing 128 times. Still waiting!

Anyway, I do think Barker makes a good point about the pressure that Bo and Vlad are under to be leading this team. Just ask the Orioles how much easier it is to succeed in the majors when the expectations are literally nonexistent!

Moving on…

Is there a point where getting a long-term extension with someone like Vlad is no longer viable?

There is probably a point where you get closer to free agency that a player wants to test free agency, but I still think, even if it gets to that point, it's not a player that we can't sign if we're willing to pay whatever the market price is.

I think the one thing that might get left out of the public discourse is it's not a unilateral decision — we're not making a decision to sign any individual player long-term, it's a relationship between a player and the organization, and it's ultimately about sharing risk. You look for the sweet spot where a player is comfortable giving up some of the upside of reaching a free agent market, and the club is comfortable guaranteeing — through ups and downs, injuries, everything else. Both sides are taking on some risk in doing that, and you try to find that middle ground where both are comfortable with the risk that they're taking.

A player, like a José Ramírez, for example, says, 'What I've got in Cleveland makes me happy, I don't need anything more, I know I might be able to get more, probably can get more.' The Cleveland Guardians say, 'We're going to stretch to pay a player that much, even though it's hard for us to do in this market and with that payroll, because it's a special player and we believe in him and we want him to represent everything we're about as an organization.' They both give up something, because that certainty within a smaller payroll is tough for the Guardians to do, and José gives up finding out what he could have gotten if he had gone to free agency.

So, that's an example from another team's player that's already done, complete. I'm not going to talk about our guys individually except to tell you the same thing we've said all along. We've already had those conversations, we will continue at the appropriate time to have them again, and we'll keep looking for that sweet spot where we both feel good about the risk we're taking on.

OK, a few things about this one. First of all, I think Shapiro is basically correct that we probably don't talk enough about how this is a two-way street and the player has to want to take the money that's on offer. But the thing is, it's a whole lot easier for an organization to pony up a little more than would prefer than it is for a player to forgo millions and millions of dollars. Yes there is risk on both sides, but that doesn't mean the risk on both sides is equal.

And using Ramírez as an example? I'm sure much of this response is informed by Shaprio's years with Cleveland, and as such that's an easy one to pluck, but not only is that a really team-friendly deal, my interpretation is that the dynamic there was completely backwards from how these usually work. Based on the number he ended up taking, I think Ramírez genuinely wanted to stay in Cleveland. And based on the awful owner and low budget given to baseball operations in Cleveland, I don’t think it’s entirely crazy to say that the organization probably really did have to stretch to make it work. Rogers won't have to stretch a damn thing to re-sign Vlad, and the situation won't be that he's pushing them to find a way to make it work within their means, it will be that he expects to be fairly compensated and the team can either choose to do that or not. Big difference!

Even the language about the Jays' ability to retain players once they get close to the open market isn't as free-spending as it sounds, I think. Fans don't want the team to be "willing to pay whatever the market price is," they want them to sign the player. If that means pushing beyond market price, so be it.

Granted, after some of the deals the Jays have handed out in recent years, I think that they and Rogers get the benefit of the doubt on this kind of stuff. I'm just sayin'.

How satisfied are you with Jordan Romano's emergence as one of the game's best closers?

It's a great story. I was even thinking last night, I mean come on, when the lights go down, and the red lights, and the Canadian flag come up, and a kid from the GTA jogs in from the bullpen slowly to take the mound to close out games for us — and is doing it at an elite, All-Star level — how incredible is that? How cool is that for this city, and for the country, to have the pride of one of the most important players on our team that was raised in this area and grew up being a fan of the team that he's pitching for. Which is kind of what every one of us — every kid dreams about. We all dream about playing for the team that we grew up watching.

I think what makes him special, beyond his stuff — which is really, really good. But that's not what makes him special. The ability to handle blown saves. I've always said that what makes the elite closer special is not saving games, it's handling the blown saves. He's had some tough moments this year, some tough stretches this year — it's the guy, the teammate, the person, the pitcher, the competitor that comes out the next day with the same determination, the same confidence, is not scarred by those moments, just accepts them and moves forward. I think it's been a testament to his character, to his toughness, to his perseverance. And a special story for this fan base and this city.

I don’t think this his intent, but there’s a pretty striking contrast between these words and the ones spoken about Bichette. Though, to be fair, only one of those two is having the kind of elite season that’s expected of him.

Anyway, yes, we all love flag.

Are you concerned about a potential recession, and what do you see as the greatest challenges going forward from that aspect?

I'm a big believer in controlling the controllable. The Canadian economy, the North American economy, is not something I'm focused on controlling. I'm focused on doing everything possible to create the best experience for our fans. That starts with a sustainable championship team, and goes to what the renovations are going to bring, which is a tremendous lift in fan experience.

But I truly believe that there is limitless potential for this market if we're able to build a sustainable championship team and win year after year. So, any economic conditions at any one moment in time — we are incredibly fortunate to have an owner who is not viewing it on a limited basis on one year, but thinking more about a continuum. That's been evident from the way they supported us throughout the pandemic, and it will be evident in the way they support us moving forward.

Blair followed up this one by trying to get a little bit closer to the nut. “But will you have to react to a changing economy,” he asked, “with regard to ticket pricing and things like that, or is that independent of those factors?”

No, I think demand impacts ticket pricing, for sure. So, I mean, I guess that's a variable within what creates demand.

FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT’S HOLY AND GOOD, JUST TELL ME THAT THE SUPPLY CHAIN WON’T AFFECT THE SUPPLY OF LOONIE DOGS!!!

What are the chances of getting and All-Star Game in Toronto?

Well, I hope good. You'd have to call commissioner Manfred. But we have put in a bid, and we hope to have a game here. I think a couple things, one) the renovation is going to make the building capable and a showcase that fits the city and the country and the team. And so, it's been 30 years, I think, right? Thirty years since an All-Star Game has been here. Think about how much this city has changed during that time. That was, actually, my first season in Major League Baseball, and while the team was at its zenith, the city has grown astronomically since then. There's so much to show off, there's so much to showcase, I just — I can't imagine a better showcase for Major League Baseball than to have the midsummer classic in Toronto.

Hey, something actually newsworthy, I think! Unless I’ve missed an update since then, the last I’d heard about the Jays and a future All-Star Game bid was when Shi Davidi reported that the Jays had been talking to the commissioner’s office about a “possible” bid. Evidently a bid has been formally made now. And Shapiro is absolutely not wrong here. It would be a fabulous event for the city and, especially, Blue Jays fans. Let’s do this!

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Quickly…

• Mitch White will take the hill for the Jays here on Wednesday in the finale of their series with the Cubs. He’s looking to shake off the ugly outing he had back on Friday against the Angels (seven earned runs on eight hits and three walks), the Jays can at least count on him for some measure of length. As you can see in the following chart from Props.cash — player prop research made easy! — White’s last 10 outings, all starts, have seen him average just a shade under five innings. Not ideal! But at least good enough to give a little bit of a breather, if he gets there, to a Jays bullpen that has pitched 17 1/3 innings over the last five days — and often high pressure ones at that.

• And lastly, Nick and I will be back at a more “happy hour”-ish time on Thursday evening. It’s an off-day for the Jays, but we’ll be coming at you at 5:30 PM ET.

Be sure to get the Callin app and follow us on there so you can tune in live!

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