With all due respect (and I'm a big Stoeten fan) you're push back on the cheating aspect is a bit all over the place. I have zero time for Bauer and his hateful bullshit, I don't care how good at baseball he is, and firmly believe some cheating in social programs doesn't diminish the value in social programs. I also don't really see what the latter has to do with someone who cheats at baseball. I have reservations about a cheater playing on my favourite team, I'm not suggesting we cancel baseball. Also, I'm not being selective when I say that Springer had the second most trashcan bangs, the data is there - he cheated.
To his credit, Springer did handle the fallout and hard questions better than other Astros. That and his fan/community service should count for something too, as you have pointed out.
All that said, the Man in White better be a myth because my personal Pantheon would collapse with Bautista.
My point about cheating in social programs was that people's visceral reactions to cheating are often way over the top and often cloud their judgment. I stand by that point.
Yes, Springer cheated. He cheated like the Yankees and Red Sox and every team that didn't get caught, every pitcher who uses and illegal substance for grip, and every batter who uses too much pine tar.
As with the PED era, there was too little disincentive not to cheat. As with the PED era, you miss the real issue when you single out those who got caught and simply cast at them as moral write-offs -- though I'm sure it's much easier to just do that and stop there. As with the PED era, the bigger issue is about the failure of the industry, not individual bad actors.
MLB didn't take electronic sign stealing seriously enough until the PR got so bad that they had no choice. That's the scandal. Not that one team did something to get an edge that they rightly believed other teams were dabbling in as well. And the fact that it's tough to go against your teammates and an organization that is tacitly (if not explicitly) endorsing this, complicates things even further. Treating guys on the team like they were murderers or something is just an excuse to ignore these nuances and feel superior.
I think those are good points and you're right to point to the systemic issue that MLB wasn't taking seriously. I would like to point out that not everyone is driven by a need to feel superior, in my case with Springer I am trying to reconcile my disapproval for electronic sign stealing conducted by anyone and my pleasure with the signing. I think your discussion has helped me in this regard, thank you.
With all due respect (and I'm a big Stoeten fan) you're push back on the cheating aspect is a bit all over the place. I have zero time for Bauer and his hateful bullshit, I don't care how good at baseball he is, and firmly believe some cheating in social programs doesn't diminish the value in social programs. I also don't really see what the latter has to do with someone who cheats at baseball. I have reservations about a cheater playing on my favourite team, I'm not suggesting we cancel baseball. Also, I'm not being selective when I say that Springer had the second most trashcan bangs, the data is there - he cheated.
To his credit, Springer did handle the fallout and hard questions better than other Astros. That and his fan/community service should count for something too, as you have pointed out.
All that said, the Man in White better be a myth because my personal Pantheon would collapse with Bautista.
My point about cheating in social programs was that people's visceral reactions to cheating are often way over the top and often cloud their judgment. I stand by that point.
Yes, Springer cheated. He cheated like the Yankees and Red Sox and every team that didn't get caught, every pitcher who uses and illegal substance for grip, and every batter who uses too much pine tar.
As with the PED era, there was too little disincentive not to cheat. As with the PED era, you miss the real issue when you single out those who got caught and simply cast at them as moral write-offs -- though I'm sure it's much easier to just do that and stop there. As with the PED era, the bigger issue is about the failure of the industry, not individual bad actors.
MLB didn't take electronic sign stealing seriously enough until the PR got so bad that they had no choice. That's the scandal. Not that one team did something to get an edge that they rightly believed other teams were dabbling in as well. And the fact that it's tough to go against your teammates and an organization that is tacitly (if not explicitly) endorsing this, complicates things even further. Treating guys on the team like they were murderers or something is just an excuse to ignore these nuances and feel superior.
I think those are good points and you're right to point to the systemic issue that MLB wasn't taking seriously. I would like to point out that not everyone is driven by a need to feel superior, in my case with Springer I am trying to reconcile my disapproval for electronic sign stealing conducted by anyone and my pleasure with the signing. I think your discussion has helped me in this regard, thank you.
Awesome stuff. Thanks Andrew!
This is a massive effort, thank you. So here's another question....how long did it take you?